[MJ12] 1:6 Heath Ledger as The Joker Headsculpt

[chubbyman]

we all know the uneducated collectors will still buy recasts whether or not they know the artist's work. It's up to their morality whether or not they want to support the artist because like turbo said, at the end of the day, it's the artists that make them.

However, the excuse of "this hobby is too expensive! The custom market is too niche" is stupid. If the collector market is niche and too expensive, don't go into it and wait for a company to release the character for a lower price. Buying bootlegs of artist's hard work is inexcusable and if you can live with your self at the end of the day, so be it. I really love this hobby and I do support the artists, it frustrates me to see people defend recasting as if they were pushed up against the wall by the custom market prices and have no other choice but to buy recasts. Pathetic.

 

[**16k**]

I like being pathetic!

Bye guys! This argument is starting to stink of a fight, which I don't want!

Don't worry, I sleep very well and have never mistaken dolls for art!

See ya in another thread!

 

[axecutioner18]

Can't say exactly, 3 or 4 years ago I guess. But don't you come and tell me that resin and silicon have increased that much since then! I know, I buy some!
Truth is, people have sniffed a great deal here and have become greedy

But hey, once again, why argue? You have your arguments and I have mine. I can live with yours. I just hope you can live with mine!:chillpill:eace

Yes 3 or 4 years ago... approach him to sell one now. And see what reply you get. The fact you equate everything to silicone and resin only shows what your idea is of all of this. Trevor once told me personally that he underpriced his sculpts probably because he was too nice and they were his pastime sculpts he offered. The quality of work on his pastime sculpts and the one on his commissioned ones are quite different. However since you are not interested in those details and only care about the end cost and what you get I wont waste your time with such details.

Truth is different, what you pay for is what you get. Please ask artists what their comissioning fees are for high level finished one offs. Not ones he made in his pastime and people seem to be interested in.

Besides you seem to be impressed and over the moon with the resin cast quality of those older grey coloured ones he offered... so Im sure you dont even know what kind of casts and the casting involved in one is part of the highest end. These sculpts are even coated with polyeurethane for protection.

Again, these details wont jusify anything to you, Itll only tell you artists are greedy. Lets ask all these greedy artists to stop making stuff for people and have people turn to amateurs for low costs... that way neither will recasting happen, as there wont be good sculpts to recast, and you can have your hobby and toys cheap!

 

[Ebeneezer Jones]

See you dont get it, when you want that kind of production you need not just money, but a heavy amount of personal manpower to oversee that. Enterbay learnt this the hard way on their Fist of Fury release where the very factories that made the original product ended up selling unauthorised fakes for cheap. You cant control that once factory work happens or you own a factory. Once you contract a factory, the main mould for copying may change hands as you are not present there and while your product comes out, the same contractors who may own another factory may offer the same product simultaneosly over Ebay..

Thats the harsh reality. Mass production is big business. Hot Toys own their production factories so their stuff is tightly produced inspite of that one or two sculpts may be smuggled out for production. The thing is in China lots of new factories are setting up to get contracts for production. In the idle time they dont produce legit things,they do these things to keep production running.

Ok, i'm getting to speed.

People who recast don't need the original mold, they can just recast the sculpt as they do now. I know they would obviously have a better final version if they did use the original mold, but the worse version doesn't effect their sales one bit, and by the same token if they used an original mold they most probably wouldn't sell more. It would just stay the same sales wise.

What i was trying to say before is, could the original artist go to the same type of factories and make a run themselves painted. What i was trying to get at was if they sold them for the same price as the re-casters, on ebay and everywhere else, plus gave a small signed card with their sculpts, or something like that, then why would people buy the recasts...?

They could get the factory version of the original artist from their official site, ebay account or where ever, and everywhere the re-casters go, and for the same price, so in theory why would people bother with the re-cast.

Not trying to start anything here, just trying to see if realistically anything ever could be done.

 

[axecutioner18]

You again dont understand... the problem with mass production is you need a hired team who will be there every step of the way to oversee everything in factories. It is NOT possible for an artist to employ so many people!! If he simply goes to the factories he cant do crap if they after making the original mould from the sculpt refuse to give him a cut of the sales. Contracts dont work that way. All companies who use factories have a large setup dedicated simply to be present at the factories during production.

 

[Ebeneezer Jones]

I see. Oh well.

 

[robbiethepainter]

Good example of mass produced sculpt without good supervision is the Sideshow Drake head. Accurate or not, the original was a great sculpt and the production piece is horrible.

 

[Ebeneezer Jones]

So it's basically the whole shebang as Axe said. Production team etc etc.

 

[The Iron Koob]

When is the second batch coming out? I paid a long time ago. I'm just anxious, hopefully soon? I'm getting my first detolfs today

 

[axecutioner18]

Some people like Kato already received theres ... they are all being sent out slowly as soon as they are finished. Keep checking your emails for tracking ids from time to time.

 

[The Iron Koob]

Some people like Kato already received theres ... they are all being sent out slowly as soon as they are finished. Keep checking your emails for tracking ids from time to time.

Ah I see thanks axe

 

[elvis1976]

Here's one I just almost done for philmah.

I got an unpainted cast. I painted it Mob Meeting make-up and added a few trands of real hair.

I still need to make some slight paint adjustments and add more hair here and there but here it is so far.

 

[chubbyman]

WOW! YES! THAT'S WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT! can't wait for you to get your hands on mine!

 

[user 46438]

That is so awesome.

 

[The Iron Koob]

The makeup looks great, especially the shape of the eyes

 

[Hydeous]

Looks great, Seb :clap

WOW! YES! THAT'S WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT! can't wait for you to get your hands on mine!

That's what she said :lecture

 

[Noah&connor]

Anyone have an unpainted in hand, they want to sell?
i want the plugged version, without hair extension

 

[Darkavatar]

I like being pathetic!

Bye guys! This argument is starting to stink of a fight, which I don't want!

Don't worry, I sleep very well and have never mistaken dolls for art!

See ya in another thread!

You are right dolls are not art overall, but it takes a great deal of talent and work that goes into these customs, which makes the people that make them artist. I think you think that a figure is a figure no matter what, as long as it has clothes and moves like a toy then it is not some valuable item but just a toy doll. In some way I guess that is true but when it comes to artist that work day and night in their own time to create projects on commissions then the doll or sculpt in this case is not simply a toy head sculpt for another toy doll action figure. I am not saying the price is justified and I am not saying it isn't either but to say people who sculpt and paint these great sculpts are not artist and thus, the sculpt itself is not some form of art just because it goes on an action figure toy body is insulting IMO. Even one of my friend's who doesn't collect these said he could appreciate the art that went into them, so even he can see these items are art.

 

[**16k**]

I'd sworn myself not to come back here but couldn't resist! :lol

...especially since I agree with pretty much everything you said but for one count! Yes, they are artists ( or at the very least it's superb craftsmanship), and yes they make a work of art since, yes, art is in the eye of the beholder, but just for the original! The one you get is just a copy (now I'm not speaking about the paint work which in itself is yet another matter). It's just like buying a printed Rambrandt at the supermarket and saying this is art as the original was! It's not! Now paying a high price for an original is perfectly understandable. If that's your thing, I see nothing wrong with it!

I mean I love Japanese art swords and can spend a lot for one, but it's a unique piece! Here, except for the paint job ( if you're getting one painted that is!), there is nothing unique about it. It's not mass production but it's still not the genuine article!
Now I wouldn't want anyone here thinking I'm picking at this artist in particular. I posted here because the conversation started here, what I say is true ( for me) of most custom threads.

In fact, I think that for me, my problem is turning a hobby into a business. This is what I hate! Now, I know, that's what companies do, but you have to start somewhere. When customizes produce a head not because they absolutely want to have that character in their collection, but because they know that some people will want it and are ready to pay a lot to get it, then there I think things are going wrong! It's no longer a labor of love but a way to make money. It just becomes business.

Oh Hell, there's nothing wrong with business I guess, I just feel sad that my passion becomes reduced to just that. And even, paying isn't really the issue. What I hate above all is limited editions. That's the bane of collecting IMHO. I think it's business at its worst. Giving the wealthiest what they can afford while letting those who can't afford it drool before it! That's despicable to my eyes. Just like dangling a sugar to a dog and raising your hand when he's going to snap at it. It's, you're fast? You're lucky? You're wealthy? Then you can get it, if not screw you. But hey, that's just yet another subject and I won't even start to get there.

To finish, I hope you guys don't have hard feelings against me as I surely don't have any against you. People are bound to have different opinions about matters. I expressed them here because I know a lot of people buy recasts from time to time and I see you guys being vocal and none of the others having the guts to even admit it.

Personally, I buy both originals and recasts from time to time but I'm not the kind of guy hiding behind my finger. It's just a conflict of vision between us. You see it as art, I see it as a market and I don't have unlimited resources. I'm neither proud nor ashamed of it. It's just the rule of demand and supply. I go where things are. If it's genuine, fine. If not, well, I'll live with it. It's globalization...

 

[TheFiend]

art
noun
1. the expression or application of human creative skill and imagination, typically in a visual form such as painting or sculpture, producing works to be appreciated primarily for their beauty or emotional power.

By definition the dolls we see here in the custom area is art.